MARGARET THATCHER AND WILLIAM F BUCKLEY JR - THE BRITISH EXPERIMENT WITH SOCIALISM

 

Two of the greatest minds ever in the  20th century discuss economic and political freedom, free enterprise, a free society.

Margaret Thatcher,  Former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, PC, FRS was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990 and the Leader of the Conservative Party from 1975 to 1990. Wikipedia 

Margaret Thatcher

 

 

William Frank Buckley, Jr. was an American conservative author and commentator. He founded the political magazine National Review in 1955, which had a major impact in stimulating the conservative movement. Wikipedia

William F Buckley - National Review

Machine Transcript, expect errors.

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on I believe you weren't

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key political freedom and those who also have economic freedom

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which means that you must have a large part to free enterprise

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in your whole economy here

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the

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the two ways in which any government can proceed

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one is away based on want to and I would call a free society

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which enshrined right to the heart is the American Constitution

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the other one is away which allows

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only one view both economics and politics

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and with almost everything is either owned or controlled by the state

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including the media including the ideas

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including freedom a discussion and everything there is no freedom

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discussion now between those to waste the free society and the

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totally controlled society are of course variations

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I think what we've learned in Britain is we've gradually over the last

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certain at 12 or 13 years with perhaps a little interruption

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gone slowly it further and further away

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from the free society toward something else

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at the same time we found

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I don't find it strange with some other people do

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the we have stopped creating wealth

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we've had a large numbers increasing restrictions

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and you been finding two things

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first that we are more and more concentrating on

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redistributing the wealth we've got rather than creating anymore

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to create more you may dislike you freer society

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and you need an incentive society naturally when I see that happening

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I look with very great alarm two societies which are gone

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even for the left that is they've tried to redistribute

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even more haven't had the incentives for people

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working hard on their own account doing well for their families and often then

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be able to create jobs

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others that produced a much more prosperous society the only have

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but by and large you got the to broad

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different economic and political approaches in the recent

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and I found this is a very moving talk that you gave on

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in lawn you quoted the Prime Minister

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be bitten the missed miss callahan

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who said nineteen sixty I have not %uh the slightest doubt

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that the economic ca measures and the socialist measures

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which one will find in the country's eastern europe

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will become increasingly powerful against the uncoordinated planned a

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society in which the West

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is living at present now

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we assume that since nineteen sixty missed Callahan has learned something

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right

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it'd be impossible not to like trust

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oh no I think I i kno lusty when Nani's 1960

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I hope they never come on your program well I wish someone would I don't think

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it's best known as nobody is

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16 position you see they have no free play have ideas in that society that's

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one of the points and I started when 10

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mississippi's allow you to read he has a secret library would agree the reader's

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digest

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yes indeed but unless you have freedom a discussion

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over a whole society you soon cease to have

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any new ideas don't have %ah the new ideas developed when you can talk about

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them with other people

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if you can't discuss them freely because that is a correct

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you you soon cease to have new ideas now the interesting thing I think in the

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soviet union is

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that a good deal all the the didn't use

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come from people who have to be trained to think in the scientific sphere

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because Russia would never had somehow achievements after all she did get up

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the first sputnik

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miss you train people to think in the scientific sphere

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you can train them to think in maths and science

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without having the power for 42 in thinking new ideas

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spilling over and it's interesting to me you say that a knot

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of your people who've been thinking new political force

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I'm welcome to the regime have often been those who come from the scientific

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sphere

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and I think in many ways american politics to be with are very different

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because you

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two parties based on a free society more free enterprise society in economic

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freedom

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we one party based on that one man party in another one

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based on socialism but you see for years now in British politics this word you

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must use it consensus has reared its head you must have a consensus

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it see you at the word again you use not to use when I first came in politics we

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had convictions

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and we tried to persuade people that our convictions were the right ones

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and his nose a good having convictions unless you have the will to translate

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those convictions into action but politics with more if you had

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convictions

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than a matter of multiple maneuverings to get through the problems of the day

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I offered think when you're going for consensus

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so often it means that those who believe as

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I believe tend to give in to the left wing and use deadly move further and

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further left

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now I'm in politics because of conviction

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but I know the one at the last election the previous election was forty in

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Britain

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on what i think is one of the most damning sentiments

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ever uttered and it was by the predecessor

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to mister callahan held Wilson

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what the British people wanted he said it was a bit of peace and quiet

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anything for a quiet life now you know and

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I know this is the great drag

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on democracy but people will say does my voice account

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can I do anything and therefore they leave it

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to a tiny well organized minority

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now you ask have people named yes

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they are learning that if you do leave it to that

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tiny well-organized minority unpleasant things happen

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unpleasant things happen and you then recalled from that

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in part to expect our politicians to do something about it

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the question is when the people themselves will back up the politicians

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what is it that ultimately

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transforms experiences into guidance

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IQ are you a recent example conviction and determination

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were well it's it's also I is sure it's a hierarchy of values and is

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because a if our it by experience you find

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that you who use is at Madame

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Liberty in return for a precarious security

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business and you go home and you don't mind then you don't you run into hard

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rock your values I say what matters to you

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and I lose liberty than it takes wat the basic reason

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for living so what if you're the sort of person who doesn't mind about having in

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the Liberty provided you've got to have some food coming to you and you will do

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what you're told to do

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then perhaps you won't mind I suppose it's the difference between being

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born free and living life like an animal at the zoo

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in a cage yeah alright term some animals do live lives

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in cages am the demand for me feeling was not apply to both

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well so with I only use that as an example to show the the difference

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between you can have total security

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without any freedom sure sure with nightly I was on people that would be

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attractive not to me at all

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as that given example something recently written by an eminent professor

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economics call George Stigler

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University Chicago he said you that there

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there are a few things that economists no

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with the forces should on there that a huge number of things about which we are

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very thing that we don't know all

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attorneys we do know and 1 a.m.

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for instance is the minimum wages will not reason that with income

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now he said any for the demonstration this isn't timely super oliver

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its just know well not in the republican party tonight another Democratic Party

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would have a

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be to come out in opposition to

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the minimum wage because superstition is endemic

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that the suit that the minimum wage actually elevates

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the income up poor people in fact poor people are precisely who were hurt

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by in income now in the British experience with

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socialism then must be are

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counterparts to from the minimum wage

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things that as you pointed out that heated exchange last week

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on which I can actually with the Prime Minister

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citing all it is up predictions

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over a period for five years each one of which cannot be wrong

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question what is that

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that people whom

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from this experience or is this something that prevents them

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from learning in the light on the d preciate it value

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I think that two things well there's an awful lot in 127 I just tied 2-2

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remembered all

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but you can learn quite a lot from experience

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that's one thing the something after that

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have user will and determination to do anything about it

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question do you not have well I'm afraid some people don't we just the lack of

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the existing already exertion

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they would prefer to take the easy way the hardware his tough

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by definition yeah many people would prefer to have it

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easy a anything for a quiet life yeah the budget want is a bit appeasing

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collar

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other was others on this matter we can rise to higher

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and better things in that company that's part about that is unlike so there are

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two things

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one you recognize what is happening to are you prepared to do anything about it

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now you make the point about minimum income I think in societies where their

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are

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enormous differences between really great

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wells and very great poverty I would require oil from there

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recalled from work from enormous differences between

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very great wealth in the present a very great call their

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and I know where yes but it has one more

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you wait I'm coming to so that is there for something to be said for a certain

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amount to redistribution their

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from by taxation and you've done it as well as we have this is what taxation is

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a bad

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so you do do a certain amount redistribution from those

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well I guess I know you're getting there into it with one min

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a farm this a to try to help people a poverty-stricken

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to get up off the floor and raise the standard and we would call that do not a

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minimum way

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we would call that a basic safety net and we would accept a moral commitment

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in a condom society like your

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or hours that jointly we do try to get an empty

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some basic standard of life and indeed

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I'm rather more than a basic standard of life

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but there are certain and benefits you can get from social security and we both

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agree on that now

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what has happened to us is that the redistribution process has gone on so

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much for

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that the standards here San earnings are

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lowest income earners learn about of average earnings are not

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top in net take-home pay are top income earners iPhone and about four times

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so that's a a comparatively narrow gap is a matter that has been

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as in Soviet Russia now once you compress the incentives from the top

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down and said doesn't matter how much you earn I'm going to take the lion's

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share away from the O

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then they say all right I'm no longer going to do the lion's park

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and then they stop creating the extra wells

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which would both benefit them and benefit society as a whole

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once they stop doing that they don't benefit then the aren't any extra taxes

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to improve the schools all the social services

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now do you see that is some point

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in some societies in a degree or redistribution

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but once it becomes a depression on incentive to get

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on by or own effort then you're denying all people

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the means are increasing the wealth about people

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individually and as a whole show and you you just become

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as we have become you make missile technology aside you making the point

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counter

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productivity after I'm sure you'll have a piece of jargon for it

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workout counterproductive I don't get to some american is a

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welcome to use that every race is on means and yes I do one thing but

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the of that hell yes so tight digitizes the redistribution it has been a certain

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point yes

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actually hurts the people were designed to be minute to minute

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yes that the the the the the the

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point you what what you have done is send me the setback in the pragmatic a

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a demonstration but it is now it's no wonder exactly touched on

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a slightly different point me about as a stickler

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I'm so I took it has less a stigma professes did was point is that done

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that you cannot festively India

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Greece the wages the poorest people in a society

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by fear exact what we do what you do is get one point

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I did with respect touch on it because I said once you stop those people in

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society cable creating wells

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will start up a business from nothing build up a big business

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this the benefit themselves look at the number people they employ

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once you stop those wealth creators from creating the wells

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then there's nothing extra to distribute and one society has just become

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means economically shuffling around a share 'cause you've got

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rather like passing the parcel because I guess it

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then your society as a whole doesn't gain yeah

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so I have touched on it you got to keep the incentives going to the top

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I don't care where the top comes from I'm not concerns is one

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the great things as always attracted me about temp

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American Society and a now tracked me

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about the kind of a political faith I have I couldn't get two hoots where a

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person comes from

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the background we tried to give them a better and better background as a father

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steak and what I care about is what they've got to contribute to society

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and we so fix that tax laws and the other laws they could make that

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contribution

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because increasing wealth would only come from them

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it won't come by government dictate and idk on cam

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I agree with your professor

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